17 August 2012

And yet........another post today

Well, here I go again. 
Yes, another post today. Actually this entry was prompted by an email discussion on the first post I did here today.

Some how, a friend and I got into a discussion after the post I put up here earlier today.
We got onto the subject of "gay marriage" and this was due to the mention of the eatery "Chick-fil-A. Yes, that outfit, which many of you know is quite anti-gay in their stance. The founder of said restaurant chain is a very "devout" christian. (Yes, I know I did NOT use a capital "C", the "beliefs of said type of person is more in keeping with the term xtian. as there is very little of Christ in said beliefs.)

I have to admit, for the record and the sake of honesty, that I have had a meal at one of the chains' places of business. We ate there once and that was some while ago. This was all before I had heard that the founder and the corporate officers are anti-gay. For myself, I did not think the food was worth the price nor was it very good in my opinion. It seemed to me that it was not cooked properly. Maybe they had a bad day or my taster isn't what it may have been once. No matter, I found the food to not be worth a "second" try.

Any way, what got to the two of us in our discussion via email was why should anybody get so angry about "gay marriage"?  I have placed quote marks around the term "gay marriage" for a reason. My reason is that personally I see NO need at all to refer to "gay marriage"and just call the marriage of two gay men or two lesbian women as marriage, no "need" to insert "gay" into it at all.

Now here comes the kicker; how does "gay marriage" hurt anybody besides, perhaps the two who are married? How does a gay or lesbian couple being married hurt me in any way? What harm is there in two loving people getting married to each other, assuming of course that they are not currently married as that would be bigamy which is unlawful. 

Maybe I am just too old or too much of an "unbeliever" to understand, but I do not see how any couple who love each other and wish to be married hurts me or anybody else. OK, I suppose I could make an argument that a third party is seriously "in love" with one of the two who wish to be married. Well, this happens quite often. How so? Well, say you find a member of the opposite sex  to be very attractive, but she/he is in love with another and not you. The two of them get married and live  a nice life together. You are "left out" as it were and perhaps a bit "hurt" by this turn of events. Happens every day I bet. Big deal. We can even change this some  what, make the object of your affection a member of the same sex. The couple still marries each other and you are still "left out" as it were. No doubt this happens often as well.
In neither of the above possible scenarios is anybody done long lasting real harm. Yes, the one who is "left out" may be saddened and it may take some time to "get over" being the one left, but no real, serious or permanent harm has been done. I would even go so far as to say that every person has been "unlucky" in love at some point in our lives. Hey, it happens, it is part of life.

Again, I keep coming back to my question; how does a caring, loving couple being married hurt me?  How does it hurt anybody?
And yet, the real question ought to be, why are we not all very happy to see a couple who love and care for each other get married? How can a decent human being not be happy when they see a caring and loving couple? OK, sure, one might say, keep it private. Well, of course, nobody needs to see "over the top" affection in public places. that is NOT what any marriage is about however. Gay marriage is NOT flaunting themselves in public. A gay or lesbian couple do not act differently in public than a "straight" couple. In most parts of the USA, any gay/lesbian couple will act very discreetly in public. The reason is they do not wish to attract undo attention to themselves. If they were to "flaunt" their relationship in public, well, lets just say that it wouldn't be looked upon favorably in much of the USA. 

In this world we live in today there is little enough real joy and happiness. This being the case, how can any sane human being get upset about two people who wish to be married and make a life together? Who has been genuinely harmed by love? Love is not destructive, it is a positive, a good and this life can use all the good it can get. 

One point that I want to make, one that I should not have to make but I think it needs being repeated as often as possible; gay people are NOT child molesters. Child molesters are pedophiles, they are NOT homosexuals. OK? Everybody got that? You best have as there just might be a test.

How can people claim to be members of a religion that says "god is love" and then turn around and condemn a marriage?  What sort of a "loving god" would condemn a marriage between two caring, loving, consenting adults? And some wonder why I refuse to believe in or follow any religion? How can a sane, decent human being be against a caring relationship and marriage of two loving people?  What sort of religion would condemn a loving marriage? Just how does such a marriage harm anybody who is not party to that marriage?
We do much, much more harm by not allowing a caring, loving couple to marry than any supposed harm can be done by their marriage, even if they be of the same sex. 

I realize this is a "hot button" issue for some politicians and their followers. It is not something I would rant on about either as I see no need to voice my opinions on what I think is a very private matter. OK, so why this rant? Well, because it IS an issue in the politics of the USA. This is most unfortunate. I see it as unfortunate because we should be mature enough to not care about what sex the two parties of a marriage are. What does it matter if the marriage is a man and a woman, or two men,or two women? Unless they want to reproduce, it should not matter at all. Even the reproduction can be dealt with as any competent doctor can tell you. 
While I believe that gay marriage, any marriage, should not have any bearing at all for any elected office, it IS a huge issue to many in the USA. It is an issue because some very, very immature people live in  the USA and many of those same immature are politicians. No doubt that Mittens and his "best bud" Paul Ryan (if he ain't dyin' he be a lyin', that sort of ryan) will make it an issue. And, of course the Gobomber gang will have to counter somehow or other. Now, to me at least and no doubt some of you as well, the real reason that "gay marriage" (those damn "  " again) is an issue is that it distracts us from the REAL issues. Yes, we are given uncounted hours of "gay marriage" pro/con and little to zero time for real issues like the damn fool wars of choice and the government debt, obscene credit card interest, ungodly student loan debt, and many REAL issues that not a single politician want to ever discuss in any way. The whole deal about gay marriage (no "  " this time!!) is to keep our minds off of the real problems, problems that the same politicians have created and have no clue how to fix or stop. The same can be said of abortion. The only male who might have any say whatsoever about abortion would be the male who  is the biological father of the unborn child who may or may not get aborted. NO other man should ever be allowed to have any real say about abortion. There I leave myself open to attack, but what the hell, I was a Marine and saw combat in Vietnam, so big deal, I can take it.

Once more, for the final time in this post any way, nobody is hurt by gay marriage. Nobody at all. The bigots who oppose gay marriage are disgusting and open themselves up to ridicule and scorn. We all should be happy to see a loving couple no matter what sex they are. This old world needs all the love and joy it can get, if gay couples wish to be married, we should all rejoice at the care and love they wish to share in a loving marriage. In a sane world, there would be no need for this post as the very idea of gay marriage, any marriage in fact, would be a given and the happiness of the married couple would bring joy to all who encounter them every day. All family members of each person in the marriage would be over joyed that their son/daughter had found a caring, loving life partner. We would no longer talk about gay marriage and only talk about marriage, plain and simple, the way life should be. We should all be happy to see a caring, loving couple. End of story.
semper fi


gesneri said...

Yeah, Charlie, but the bible tells all those devout christians that gay marriage is "wrong" like abortion, and they firmly believe it will send this country down the path to hell. There's absolutely no way to get around this, sad as it is. We just have to wait and hope they'll die off (the "devout", that is). Thanks for another good rant.

charlie ehlen said...

As is obvious, I don't pay any attention to what the "holy" books say. Late bronze age/early iron age myths.
Rather than wait for them to die off, not a workable solution as they indoctrinate their young, I do what I can to help them see the truth.
Hey, I like a good argument, what can I say? Any way, to each his/her own. I try and treat others as I want to be treated. Sure it doesn't always work out for me, but I can look at myself in the mirror and not blush or feel ashamed. Just because I do not always get treated as I want to be treated, I continue on as Dad and the Marines never taught me how to quit. Plus, I come from stubborn German ancestry. It is in my blood, so to speak. Yes, no "hope" for me...LOL.

Missy Beattie said...

Charlie, you always speak with honesty. I remember seeing a poster once with these words: "It doesn't matter who you love or what you love but that you love." Really, there can't be too much love. You have to wonder why so many people fear this.

charlie ehlen said...

Thank you for your kind comment. I try and stay honest. Dad taught me that telling the truth was the best and easy, you don't have to remember so many stories/versions if you are honest.
Maybe the fearful get no love and don't know how to love.

david g said...

Ah, Charlie, I agree with most of what you've said in this post. I guess I can't handle the situation where gays want to create or adopt kids.

Kids are imitators. They see two parents of the same sex, they think that is normal. Then they go to kindergarten and see that other children, most of them, have opposite sex parents. How do they sort this out?

I'm glad my childhood was straight forward and simple. I now live in an age that I don't understand or like!


Nan said...

Totally agree with you, Charlie. I've never been able to figure out how gays being able to enjoy the same legal privileges that come with marriage (e.g., the ability to be accepted as next of kin if their partner is hospitalized)can affect anyone else's relationships. I used to work with a Bible-thumper who'd obsess about the evils of gay marriage. I finally shut him up by asking him if he was afraid that if gays could get married he thought his wife was going to leave him immediately for another woman.

The anti-gay crowd always cites the Bible as their reason for supporting "traditional" marriage, but if you actually read the book, it's full of arrangements that are not what the fundies mean by traditional: polygamy, concubinage, rape victims being forced to marry their attackers, etc.

@David -- kids are remarkably adaptable and resilient. As long as they know who their own parents are, it's not going to confuse them much to be exposed to other families who may have only one parent in the home, two parents of the same sex, or no parents at all (e.g., kids being raised by grandparents).

IMHO, there are certain elements in our society who like to keep their base fired up over gay rights because it's a convenient distraction from issues that actually affect them, like the crap economy, our disastrous foreign policies, climate change, the corrupting influence of corporations on the political process, etc. Fussing about gay rights gives people something to rant about that has no actual connection to the real world but lets them feel like they're doing something important.

Sierra said...

Hi Charlie,

I think that thinking people might get mad at all the attention paid to gay marriage when so many other horrible things are in the news. Not mad at gay marriage itself. it has always seemed to me the people that are against it are bankers and people in insurance who will now have to cover and pay for more spouses. It is a money issue that has nothing to do with human life and the value of it! People should live free and be in love with who they are in love with. Glory be! I get mad at the "gay" issue too. I think that gay people are being used and should be set free. Politicians use this "hot" topic and it angers me when they are not doing the real job that needs doing! I have lived around gay people my whole life in California. I am straight and they have not affected me badly in all this time. They are just people. Nobody wants to know what anybody does behind closed doors. Just live and let live.


charlie ehlen said...

Thank you for your comments.
I think children are more tolerant and flexible than you might give them credit for. Yes, I can see that there might be some trouble (not sure if that is the correct term here) but from what I know of this life, children understand more than we adults credit them for.
Just my own personal opinion and not to be taken as any "truth" or "given".
Each individual "case" would be somewhat unique and may need to be monitored, but I don't see any real difficulty.

charlie ehlen said...

Great comments. I agree that the Bible has many odd "laws" and they are used very selectively by the religious types.
There is more harm being done than any possible "harms" that might(we cannot know without actual experience) arise from children who may be adopted by same sex couples.
Personally, I think that children will be much better off if they are raised in a caring,loving family setting. The worry about the children who are adopted by same sex couples is an unknown. Still, I personally think that having a caring family setting is more important. If children are raised with love they will be better for it. If it prevents further violence and hatred,how would that be bad for the child or society? Surely those who are taught tolerance can only make life better.
Again, just my own personal thinking. I am not any sort of "expert" at all.

charlie ehlen said...

Yes, the whole deal with "gay marriage" is a side show. In the overall
big picture" of what needs to be done for us all, this is a diversion. I am certain the politicians use this and other "side issues" to keep us from looking more closely at the issues that really need attention. First off, the economy, or what is left of that miserable state of things for the working class and the poor.
By using "hot button" issues like "gay marriage" and gun control, they keep us from looking at the damn fool wars of choice and what is left of the economy.
Yes, we all need to be more tolerant of others, but we need to end the idiot wars and remake the economy to be better for all.
It is a matter of priorities and "gay marriage" while important, is not one of the top, most important for the majority.
In a sane, rational world, gay marriage would not be an issue at all, we would accept it as a matter of life, a choice made by individuals.

john francis lee said...

' Now, to me at least and no doubt some of you as well, the real reason that "gay marriage" (those damn " " again) is an issue is that it distracts us from the REAL issues.

' Yes, we are given uncounted hours of "gay marriage" pro/con and little to zero time for real issues like the damn fool wars of choice and the government debt, obscene credit card interest, ungodly student loan debt, and many REAL issues that not a single politician want to ever discuss in any way.

' The whole deal about gay marriage (no " " this time!!) is to keep our minds off of the real problems, problems that the same politicians have created and have no clue how to fix or stop. '

I think that's the bottom line, Charlie, and you've nailed it.

The rest is all playing on the (not so) latent genocidal/ethnic cleansing enthusiasms of the 'religious'.

' Kill 'em all who're not like me! OR drive 'em out of my USA! '

It's my USA to the exact same extent as it is theirs. And yours. No matter our 'sexual' or any other damn 'preferences'.

It puts the lie to their 'small government' conservatism, too. They wanna use the power of the government to dictate the terms of life itself to ... other people. Not themselves, of course; who remain the ... dictators.

Which, as always, shows the very, very limited extent that reason plays in our relations to other people. It's power politics from dawn to dusk. Then furious dreaming.

The poster-boy for these guys has gotta be the guy who goes from funeral to funeral of the americans killed in America's aggressive foreign wars, cheering on the slaughter as the due of the victims so sacrificed by 'their' government, which tolerates gay people - allows 'em to live in the USA! - the due exacted by the phantasmic biblical god conjured up by these ... by this single, seriously-deranged family, apparently.

Perhaps thie pater-familias should be the next president?

charlie ehlen said...

John, Everybody should know that you cannot legislate morality. Prohibition was a huge failure. All it did was boost the bank accounts of gangsters like "big Al" in Chicago among others.
We still get way too many clowns telling us all that they can "cure" gayness. What a joke. It is NOT a disease. I also do not believe it is something one just "decides" to be one day.
Of course by trying to claim it as an illness, they think they will reap huge profits while "treating" the "condition". If the pill makers every see a way to push this, look for their profits to go through the roof.
Live and let live. Treat others as you want to be treated. And stop trying to make everybody the same. Variety IS the spice of life.

john francis lee said...

Here's an echo of your red-herring observation from Bart Gruzalski, Charlie :

' There are moments when our ability as a mega-majority to change our nation to serve our needs seems so obvious that I marvel that we haven’t already done so.

' After all, this is a democracy and we are the overwhelming majority.

' So why is our government still bailing out banksters and not creating jobs?

' Keeping troops in Afghanistan?

' Paying subsidies to the grotesquely profitable oil companies?

' The answer is straightforward.

' The 1% who benefit from these policies are employing the tactic that Julius Caesar and Napoleon knew kept a more powerful force impotent: divide and conquer or, in our case, divide and rule.

' That is what the 1% are doing and we fall for it. Whenever we get close to uniting in a demand for change, the 1% manages to sidetrack us by having someone scream “abortion,” “access to birth control,” or “same sex marriage” and we hustle back into our camps and renew our media-driven civil war against each other.

' We fall for “Red Herring Politics” every time. '

Bart likes Jill Stein. I like any and all of the non-duopols.

charlie ehlen said...

Yes, an excellent article at the Counterpunch web site this weekend.
He is right, we "fall for" the crapola spewed out by the "animal" gangs almost every time. My personal opinion is that more people are at least starting to see through the garbage. No, probably not enough to make a real difference in the coming "election", but some day and maybe sooner than we think possible. Hey, it is still legal to dream and "what if" even in the near police state the USA is becoming.

john francis lee said...

I followed a link from 'that hotbed of lukewarm centrism' again today to an article by Laura Flanders from ... shudder, The Nation ... that had some heft to it ,.. even though it ended with some questionable sympathy for Obama.

The 'red-herring-baiting' quickly turns into bald race-baiting at the Republican Party and according to Laura Flanders' report ole Mitt is in full song.

There is also an intro, for me anyway, to a guy named Scot Nakagawa who has another well-developed perspective on the whole phenomenon of being human and how racism interferes therewith. You might enjoy it,

john francis lee said...

Hope you're weathering Isaac OK, Charlie. The radar shows what wikipedia terms 'moderate' rainfall, with most of the storm heading up over AL.

john francis lee said...

That's MS not AL. The one on the left bank of the river of the same name.

john francis lee said...

Great picture of the storm at 12:15 pm (a quarter past noon, mislabelled am) on 29 August. If you click on the picture a much higher resolution images appears ... after a minute or two.

Apparently the storm was relabelled a tropical storm rather then a hurricane a couple of hours after the picture was taken.


TinCanMan said...

Well said,Charlie. Religion used as a weapon. It's nothing new but it does more than annoy me to have our Western, secular government and the rights and freedoms it conveys come under attack from Middle-Eastern religious zealots waving a bible around in our collective faces--a sure sign they have little faith in the religion they claim to follow; but then, hatred always subverts intelligent thought.

david g said...

Charlie, I dedicated a post to all those who died in wars including Vietnam!

It's called 'This World Is Killing Us' You might like it!

P.S. Take care my friend and please write some more articles.